Clive, 56, Manchester
Occupation Consultant engineer
Voting record Mostly Lib Dem. “The last MP, a Tory, thought it was a good idea to send someone a picture of his knob, so I didn’t have much time for him”
Amuse bouche Clive once competed in a 24-hour lawnmower race. “The engine blew up after five or six hours”
Sheena, 54, Manchester
Occupation Author and university lecturer
Voting record Born in Zambia of Indian heritage, she has voted in the UK since 2010 (Labour and Green). Describes herself as “centre left, but maybe more libertarian than a lot of leftwing people”
Amuse bouche Sheena plays guitar and sings in a band with her husband. They play mainly bluegrass, rock and pop
For starters
Clive It was a very pleasant bistro. We chose the same starter, a crab cake with half a soft-boiled egg. Sheena had cod loin and I had a chicken schnitzel with a shawarma sauce.
Sheena He let me choose the wine: we had a bottle of rosé. Clive was a lovely, decent fellow, very different from my university colleagues and social circle. I think he is braver in using language in a way that could be offensive to some people, but he didn’t say anything to cause offence to me.
The big beef
Clive On immigration we talked about the need for people in healthcare. I did my research – I think 35% of doctors here were born outside the UK, 27% of people in nursing. We are not growing enough local workforce, and that is made up for by immigration.
Sheena I wanted to put him at ease and let him know I’m happy to talk about immigration. But I think the way we talk about it – “We need immigrants because there are gaps in the NHS” or even, “They’ve brought a lot to our country and contributed to our society” – is not helpful. It dehumanises immigrants: they become gap fillers.
Clive It’s reasonable to set a quota on the number of people to do a specific thing and let those people come to the UK. In general, I’m in favour of people coming as students, and if they get a job afterwards, contribute to society and the economy, then within reason that’s fine. What I am dead against is people getting in a boat and coming to the UK. I firmly believe the majority are here for economic reasons; all the stuff around claiming asylum or whatever – they’re just saying the right thing in order to get in.
Sheena The whole discourse relies on this idea that immigration is a thing that you can evaluate, when it is just the way human beings behave. Just like birds will go to warmer climates, or penguins will march across the Antarctic, human beings move. Most migration happens within the global south. Here it’s talked about as if it’s only happening to the UK. In the end, it’s not something you can control.
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Sharing plate
Clive Sheena is obviously very smart, very eloquent. She did an engineering degree, which I also did; I was the first person in my family to go to university. But then she decided she was more interested in English and writing books.
Sheena Clive was inclined to say, “We’re really not disagreeing with each other.” But I could see that we were. Maybe because I wasn’t expressing myself so well, he couldn’t see that we were actually disagreeing about points.
For afters
Clive If you come to the UK, you should take part in society and fit in and get along. There are laws that say you can dress how you like, have whatever religious freedom, that’s fine; but you should learn English, you should not set up segregated schools or live in areas dominated by your own culture.
Sheena Clive said that Britain has an education system where people are required to question authority, taught to be critical, and people from other educational backgrounds might just believe what God tells you to do. But there is a spectrum, and you can’t say every person who’s gone through the British education system has the same level of critical thinking. If they did, the UK wouldn’t have had the history it has.
Takeaways
Sheena It’s important to listen and maintain a sense of humour, and I think we did.
Clive I read Dining Across the Divide regularly. I’m very interested in other people’s points of view, and I enjoy a good chat. Sheena’s going to email a link where I can buy her next book, so I can read it when I’m on holiday.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
Clive and Sheena ate at Kala in Manchester
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